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	<title>Comments on: Don&#8217;t mess with the Jebs</title>
	<atom:link href="http://warrenkinsella.com/2010/06/dont-mess-with-the-jebs/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://warrenkinsella.com/2010/06/dont-mess-with-the-jebs/</link>
	<description>Musings</description>
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		<title>By: Catholic Tide</title>
		<link>http://warrenkinsella.com/2010/06/dont-mess-with-the-jebs/#comment-5610</link>
		<dc:creator>Catholic Tide</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jun 2010 02:09:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://warrenkinsella.com/?p=802#comment-5610</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Curing Socratophobia: On Teaching the Great Books...&lt;/strong&gt;

My blog readers will be interested in your post so added a trackback to it on CatholicTide...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Curing Socratophobia: On Teaching the Great Books&#8230;</strong></p>
<p>My blog readers will be interested in your post so added a trackback to it on CatholicTide&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: maria</title>
		<link>http://warrenkinsella.com/2010/06/dont-mess-with-the-jebs/#comment-5199</link>
		<dc:creator>maria</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jun 2010 14:18:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://warrenkinsella.com/?p=802#comment-5199</guid>
		<description>Loyola is not refusing to teach the moral and religious education or any other curriculum set by the government.  It has argued that it retains the right as a Jesuit school to teach it from a Catholic perspective.  My self-declared, atheist son is starting there next September, so we shall learn first hand what that means in practice.  

From our point of view, we are thankful that the private Catholic schools, (both French and English) exist.  They provide a more affordable option to the unpredictable education offered by public schools and the hyper-expensive Westmount private schools.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Loyola is not refusing to teach the moral and religious education or any other curriculum set by the government.  It has argued that it retains the right as a Jesuit school to teach it from a Catholic perspective.  My self-declared, atheist son is starting there next September, so we shall learn first hand what that means in practice.  </p>
<p>From our point of view, we are thankful that the private Catholic schools, (both French and English) exist.  They provide a more affordable option to the unpredictable education offered by public schools and the hyper-expensive Westmount private schools.</p>
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		<title>By: Ronald O'Dowd</title>
		<link>http://warrenkinsella.com/2010/06/dont-mess-with-the-jebs/#comment-5162</link>
		<dc:creator>Ronald O'Dowd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jun 2010 03:21:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://warrenkinsella.com/?p=802#comment-5162</guid>
		<description>crf,

This hot potato is destined for The Quebec Court of Appeal for a start. It will likely be overturned there and I expect the SCC will uphold whatever decision the QCA reaches.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>crf,</p>
<p>This hot potato is destined for The Quebec Court of Appeal for a start. It will likely be overturned there and I expect the SCC will uphold whatever decision the QCA reaches.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://warrenkinsella.com/2010/06/dont-mess-with-the-jebs/#comment-5113</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jun 2010 16:49:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://warrenkinsella.com/?p=802#comment-5113</guid>
		<description>My view is something like this: 

&quot;I fundamentally believe in the separation of church and state. Most of the time, the threat to civil society involves religious figures attempting to impose the tenets of their faith on government. But, sometimes, it also involves government  bureaucrats attempting to impose their misanthropy on religion.  Neither should be allowed to stand.&quot;

I think I&#039;ve even used those words myself once, except I might have added an expletive or two.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My view is something like this: </p>
<p>&#8220;I fundamentally believe in the separation of church and state. Most of the time, the threat to civil society involves religious figures attempting to impose the tenets of their faith on government. But, sometimes, it also involves government  bureaucrats attempting to impose their misanthropy on religion.  Neither should be allowed to stand.&#8221;</p>
<p>I think I&#8217;ve even used those words myself once, except I might have added an expletive or two.</p>
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		<title>By: Jerome Bastien</title>
		<link>http://warrenkinsella.com/2010/06/dont-mess-with-the-jebs/#comment-5112</link>
		<dc:creator>Jerome Bastien</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jun 2010 16:36:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://warrenkinsella.com/?p=802#comment-5112</guid>
		<description>&quot;Most of the time, the threat to civil society involves religious figures attempting to impose the tenets of their faith on government. But, sometimes, it also involves government bureaucrats attempting to impose their misanthropy on religion.&quot;

That may have been true as recently as 50 years ago, but today, with religious institutions being severely weakened and lacking any real influence, the threat is unambiguously from government imposing its dictates on churches.  This may be warranted in some extreme cases (e.g., Bountiful, BC), but most of the time, as in this case, it is ill-advised.

Also, I would bet dollars to donuts on a Jesuit education (rigorous and thorough) versus a public education (vapid and politically correct).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Most of the time, the threat to civil society involves religious figures attempting to impose the tenets of their faith on government. But, sometimes, it also involves government bureaucrats attempting to impose their misanthropy on religion.&#8221;</p>
<p>That may have been true as recently as 50 years ago, but today, with religious institutions being severely weakened and lacking any real influence, the threat is unambiguously from government imposing its dictates on churches.  This may be warranted in some extreme cases (e.g., Bountiful, BC), but most of the time, as in this case, it is ill-advised.</p>
<p>Also, I would bet dollars to donuts on a Jesuit education (rigorous and thorough) versus a public education (vapid and politically correct).</p>
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		<title>By: crf</title>
		<link>http://warrenkinsella.com/2010/06/dont-mess-with-the-jebs/#comment-5111</link>
		<dc:creator>crf</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jun 2010 16:31:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://warrenkinsella.com/?p=802#comment-5111</guid>
		<description>The decision is just begging to be struck down.
The opinions of the Judge on the idea that Canada is a country recognizing the constitutional supremacy of God, is in this day and age, farcical. The preamble to the charter is just that: a preamble. &quot;Whereas Canada is founded upon principles that recognize the supremacy of God and the rule of law&quot; doesn&#039;t mean that Canada&#039;s laws must be compatible with any interpretation of God&#039;s laws: this preamble is just a history lesson about the evolution of the principles that make our law.

First, this is going to the Supreme court quickly.
 
Second, I assume the Quebec Legislature will use the notwithstanding clause to suspend this judgement in the meantime, given its obvious impropriety. I&#039;m pretty sure this will pass close to unanimously.

Third, I bet this judge will retire. The judgement&#039;s editorializing gives the impression of him penning a final manifesto.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The decision is just begging to be struck down.<br />
The opinions of the Judge on the idea that Canada is a country recognizing the constitutional supremacy of God, is in this day and age, farcical. The preamble to the charter is just that: a preamble. &#8220;Whereas Canada is founded upon principles that recognize the supremacy of God and the rule of law&#8221; doesn&#8217;t mean that Canada&#8217;s laws must be compatible with any interpretation of God&#8217;s laws: this preamble is just a history lesson about the evolution of the principles that make our law.</p>
<p>First, this is going to the Supreme court quickly.</p>
<p>Second, I assume the Quebec Legislature will use the notwithstanding clause to suspend this judgement in the meantime, given its obvious impropriety. I&#8217;m pretty sure this will pass close to unanimously.</p>
<p>Third, I bet this judge will retire. The judgement&#8217;s editorializing gives the impression of him penning a final manifesto.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Dowling</title>
		<link>http://warrenkinsella.com/2010/06/dont-mess-with-the-jebs/#comment-5107</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Dowling</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jun 2010 16:11:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://warrenkinsella.com/?p=802#comment-5107</guid>
		<description>Don&#039;t want state values, don&#039;t take state money - either in tax subsidy or via tax deductible donation. 

I&#039;d tell the Premier of Ontario to take note (i.e. request removal of the Constititional requirement to fund Catholic schools from Ontario tax dollars) but that&#039;s not going to happen for family and votecatching reasons.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Don&#8217;t want state values, don&#8217;t take state money &#8211; either in tax subsidy or via tax deductible donation. </p>
<p>I&#8217;d tell the Premier of Ontario to take note (i.e. request removal of the Constititional requirement to fund Catholic schools from Ontario tax dollars) but that&#8217;s not going to happen for family and votecatching reasons.</p>
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		<title>By: keyrocks</title>
		<link>http://warrenkinsella.com/2010/06/dont-mess-with-the-jebs/#comment-5100</link>
		<dc:creator>keyrocks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jun 2010 13:51:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://warrenkinsella.com/?p=802#comment-5100</guid>
		<description>I agree. Separation of church and state is an important principle that should apply throughout Canada... though it is a constant battle to maintain it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree. Separation of church and state is an important principle that should apply throughout Canada&#8230; though it is a constant battle to maintain it.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Behiels</title>
		<link>http://warrenkinsella.com/2010/06/dont-mess-with-the-jebs/#comment-5095</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Behiels</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jun 2010 12:49:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://warrenkinsella.com/?p=802#comment-5095</guid>
		<description>The ruling of Quebec&#039;s Superior Court Judge in this matter is merely the beginning of this crucial and long overdue debate.  Judge Gérard Dupré&#039;s use of language is farcical and quite dangerous.  The Quebec government is not acting in a &#039;totalitarian&#039; fashion.  This is inappropriate language. This dispute over Church-State relations in Quebec will be pushed, and quite rightly so, by the Charest government all the way to the Supreme Court of Canada.  Once there, this important matter will be argued vigorously and then a reasonable ruling will be made.  Judicial review of very tough rights cases is after all one of the two central roles of Canada&#039;s Supreme Court and its learned justices.

Why? Because there are competing rights at stake and no right - individual or collective - is absolute.  The Supreme Court will attempt to strike a reasonable balance between these competing rights. Religious rights are protected by the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.  Religious rights compete with the rights of society, as formulated by our legislators, to ensure that all of our children receive a comprehensive education unburdened by excessively religious or secular bias.
It is important that everyone remain calm and allow this matter to be adjudicated in a formal way by the learned justices of the Supreme Court of Canada.

I, too, Warren attended a private Catholic College for five years. I was taught the history of the Catholic Church each year for five years!!  I then  went on to a Catholic University.  No other religion was ever mentioned in either the College or the University!!   But it was a private College and a private University and they did not receive public funding so their administrators had the right to set the curriculum.

A constitutional amendment between Quebec and Canada, negotiated by Lucien Bouchard&#039;s separatist PQ government, ended the constitutional right to publily funded denominational schools in Quebec in 1998. I might be mistaken, but I think Loyola College, like most private colleges in Quebec, continues to receive substantial public funding.  The Quebec government has every right to end the public funding for all private schools and colleges in Quebec.   If Loyola College&#039;s administration insists that it be able to determine the college&#039;s curriculum and reject the curriculum of Quebec&#039;s Ministry of Education, then it should forgo all the state subsidies. Parent who want their children to have a purely religious education should be willing to pay the freight.  Taxpayers should not be expected to pick up the tab.  

Premier Dalton McGuinty and the Ontario Liberal Party were right when they refused to accept the demand by Ontario&#039;s private religious schools and their promoters and supporters in the Conservative Party of Ontario for public funding while retaining their right to determine their respective curricula.

Many Ontarians think that the continuation of public funding for Catholic separate schools is unfair and unjust. Perhaps Ontarians will insist on a widespread public debate over this issue at some point down the road.  At the moment, our Constitution protects the rights of Ontarian Catholics to publicly funded Catholic separate schools and this right must be protected by politicians and by the Courts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The ruling of Quebec&#8217;s Superior Court Judge in this matter is merely the beginning of this crucial and long overdue debate.  Judge Gérard Dupré&#8217;s use of language is farcical and quite dangerous.  The Quebec government is not acting in a &#8216;totalitarian&#8217; fashion.  This is inappropriate language. This dispute over Church-State relations in Quebec will be pushed, and quite rightly so, by the Charest government all the way to the Supreme Court of Canada.  Once there, this important matter will be argued vigorously and then a reasonable ruling will be made.  Judicial review of very tough rights cases is after all one of the two central roles of Canada&#8217;s Supreme Court and its learned justices.</p>
<p>Why? Because there are competing rights at stake and no right &#8211; individual or collective &#8211; is absolute.  The Supreme Court will attempt to strike a reasonable balance between these competing rights. Religious rights are protected by the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.  Religious rights compete with the rights of society, as formulated by our legislators, to ensure that all of our children receive a comprehensive education unburdened by excessively religious or secular bias.<br />
It is important that everyone remain calm and allow this matter to be adjudicated in a formal way by the learned justices of the Supreme Court of Canada.</p>
<p>I, too, Warren attended a private Catholic College for five years. I was taught the history of the Catholic Church each year for five years!!  I then  went on to a Catholic University.  No other religion was ever mentioned in either the College or the University!!   But it was a private College and a private University and they did not receive public funding so their administrators had the right to set the curriculum.</p>
<p>A constitutional amendment between Quebec and Canada, negotiated by Lucien Bouchard&#8217;s separatist PQ government, ended the constitutional right to publily funded denominational schools in Quebec in 1998. I might be mistaken, but I think Loyola College, like most private colleges in Quebec, continues to receive substantial public funding.  The Quebec government has every right to end the public funding for all private schools and colleges in Quebec.   If Loyola College&#8217;s administration insists that it be able to determine the college&#8217;s curriculum and reject the curriculum of Quebec&#8217;s Ministry of Education, then it should forgo all the state subsidies. Parent who want their children to have a purely religious education should be willing to pay the freight.  Taxpayers should not be expected to pick up the tab.  </p>
<p>Premier Dalton McGuinty and the Ontario Liberal Party were right when they refused to accept the demand by Ontario&#8217;s private religious schools and their promoters and supporters in the Conservative Party of Ontario for public funding while retaining their right to determine their respective curricula.</p>
<p>Many Ontarians think that the continuation of public funding for Catholic separate schools is unfair and unjust. Perhaps Ontarians will insist on a widespread public debate over this issue at some point down the road.  At the moment, our Constitution protects the rights of Ontarian Catholics to publicly funded Catholic separate schools and this right must be protected by politicians and by the Courts.</p>
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		<title>By: Tybalt</title>
		<link>http://warrenkinsella.com/2010/06/dont-mess-with-the-jebs/#comment-5094</link>
		<dc:creator>Tybalt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jun 2010 12:46:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://warrenkinsella.com/?p=802#comment-5094</guid>
		<description>Would we similarly support a private Islamic madrassa in the same circumstances, I wonder?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Would we similarly support a private Islamic madrassa in the same circumstances, I wonder?</p>
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