06.09.2010 10:39 PM

Worth reading

Here’s the deal: stop telling B.S. about us, and we’ll stop telling the truth about you.



  1. Jim says:

    This whole thing is kinda crazy.

    They are hanging you out as a lying nut. Sad state of affairs for one as loyal as yourself.

    Come on over the the CPC and help people like me to keep them centrist…we can help mold them to be Canada’s defacto centrist government.

    I actually, as private citizen, have a tiny say with our current government, and recieve prompt replies to questions I have. Granted, I am a supporter of the CPC, but when when was the last time a Liberal supporter felt empowered.

    Did any of you vote to make Ignatieff leader?

    • Joseph says:

      You feel “empowered” as a CPC supporter? Good God, man, even Harper’s cabinet ministers feel empowered.

    • The Other Jim says:

      I just wanted to note that CPC Jim and I are not the same person. I’m the centre-slightly right guy who was posting about the coalition last week. I just didn’t want anyone to think that my posts had been CPC plants! 🙂

      Who knew that my name was so popular?


    • Bill Templeman says:

      No, not me. I joined the party to vote for Bob Rae as leader. Ignatieff is immensely talented, but unfortunately his mastery in writing and research does not necessarily mean that he has mastery in politics, oral communications, leadership and effective use of media.

      Has Ignatieff has become a liability for the LPC? I dunno….

      Kudos to you, Warren, for at raising the tough questions. I don’t think we can remind ourselves too often of the consequences of getting the next election campaign wrong. 4 more years of Harper?. Canada will be unrecognizable.

  2. Namesake says:

    Here’s the link to Mraz’s story yesterday, proving he really did have an interview with Apps like he described


  3. hugger says:

    As I ponder this kerfuffle, that Kenny Rogers song, The Gambler keeps drifting into my head.

    Every gambler knows that the secret to survive is
    Knowing what to throw away and knowing what to keep

  4. Michael Watkins says:

    Centrist? The Harper Conservatives?

    Not a chance. A party that screws with a woman’s right to choose isn’t a centrist party. A party led by someone what would have sent us to Iraq had he the opportunity isn’t a centrist party. A party that is willing to do deals with the Columbian government despite its horrible track record on human rights and protection isn’t a centrist party.

    A party that is willing to shove on to the tax payer the lions share of risk of the nuclear industry isn’t a centrist party. A party that doesn’t actually believe in the social safety net above and beyond the bare minimum that exists today isn’t a centrist party. Harper has cut the treasury to the bone to ensure that neither he nor any upcoming PM will be able to expand or create social programs of any significance, at least not without raising taxes. That’s not a centrist, pragmatic, decision but one of the ideological right. A party that sets or reinforces bad examples by nominating to cabinet those that didn’t run for it is not a party who believes in an elected and responsible government, an important notion and one of the main contributions of early liberal-reformers to our country.

    A party where only four, yes four, MPs stood up for same sex marriage is not a centrist party. One of them, Belinda Stronach, would later leave. Another of them, Michael Chong, is so principled he would not support Harper’s game playing with Quebec (“recognizing them as a nation”) that he resigned his cabinet seat.

    Harper’s CPC has put a sorta-centrist veneer over itself to lull the press and population into believing that he can be trusted with a majority. Eventually it will work and the veneer will come off.

    I’m not a Liberal. The only cards I’ve ever held are federal PC Party and briefly, near the merger, also a CA card. In the end I left the Conservative party because the party turned its back on socially responsible, progressive, policies and those who support such policies and politics. I’ve seen the party from the inside and it looks nothing like the moderate PC Party of old. You aren’t going to see great ideas come from that crowd, not with the current leadership. Besides, how many Red Tories are in Harper’s cabinet?

    If you have people like Romanow, Broadbent, McMurtry, Clark and Chretien talking together at the kitchen table again, I’m interested. Three of those gentlemen helped repatriate our constitution and establish the Charter of Rights and Freedoms (which many on the ideological right hate, despite ‘conservatives’ having taken a role in helping it along). Chretien understood financial and social balance and to his great credit saw clearly that the Bush invasion of Iraq was an illegal quagmire. McMurtry was one of three of a panel of Ontario justices which paved the way for legal same sex marriages in Ontario, establishing an important precedent.

    These acts and decisions and many others I could name if not for fear of being accused of being overly wordy again, despite the relevance of the response, made and make Canada a better place to live in, and indeed because of some of the things done in those days we issue a better reflection of us to the world. The Economist back then declared “Canada is cool”. We stood on our own two feet, and did stuff.

    What, really, has Harper done – started and finished of his own accord – that has made Canada a better place? I wouldn’t count election trinkets myself, but do so if you feel you must. Please be specific and avoid party spin.

    If there is an honest effort afoot by our country’s political elders to shape a new political force, I’m interested. We need another. I don’t care if it results from a merger or from the ashes of existing parties.

    • Michael Watkins says:

      Hey Warren, please remove the above rather than post it, I think I have my facts mixed up on Michael Chong and bill C38. I’ll fix it or skip it.

  5. Namesake says:

    Also, check out this article by an NDP counterpart to WK, esp. if you’re on the fence about whether, how & why these talks by those who have the overall interests of the country at heart (but aren’t so wedded to the current incarnations of their parties) have occurred


  6. LibVin says:

    I voted for Ignatieff, Jim, and I’m sticking with him until the end.

  7. Catherine says:

    Now, who could resist an offer like the one above?

    I don’t doubt that the next prime minister will be Michael Ignatieff.

    As a fairly new active member of the party, I am working towards the defeat of the uninspiring Reformer in our riding.

    The rest of the stuff is for’gossipy busy-bodies.’ ‘nuf said.

    We’re busy building a party on the credentials of Jean and Paul.

    • Steve T says:

      Trouble is, neither Jean nor Paul are running. That seems to be the biggest problem with the Liberals right now – they think, based on past performance, they have a divine right to govern. Voters don’t see Martin or Chretien in Parliament; they see Iggy. Stop resting on the laurels of the past, and make something of your current leader.

  8. Paul R. Martin says:

    I do not want to call Mr. Apps a fiberal, because he just might want to sue me; however, he appears to have a case of selective amnesia.

  9. George Tserotas says:

    It’s sad to see Warren trying to undermine Iggy just because Warren couldn’t get his way. Warren, your credibility has just taken a big hit that you will never recover from. With the Harper boys reeling from their $1 Billion summit, this could have been a tipping point for a Liberal charge in the polls. Instead we see people like Warren doing everything they can to make Iggy’s stay a short one. Once again, the Liberals eat their own.

  10. Reality.Bites says:

    Jim, unless your last name is Flaherty you have no influence at all over the CPC.

    And if your last name IS Flaherty, get to work on the economy and stop trolling blogs.

  11. e says:

    Warren, what is the point here?

    The point should have been outreach, to secure strategic voting in mutal interest. A merger (vs coalition, strategic voting etc) is not on. There is common ground in about 45 seats… common ground that need not be fought over… building some good will is in everyone’s interest

    Fox News of the North is the alternative

  12. smelter rat says:

    @Jim…talk about pissing in the wind. You think you and people who think like you are going to pull the Reformers to the center? Dream on.

    @ Warren…they’re certainly spinning this like it’s all your fault 🙂

  13. Tceh says:

    “Come on over the the CPC and help people like me to keep them centrist…we can help mold them to be Canada’s defacto centrist government.”

    You are talking about the Harper Party? This is a joke right?

  14. Tceh says:

    The sky is not falling on the Liberal Party BTW.

    Here is an interesting table of voter intentions 1978-2006


    • Michael Watkins says:

      Tcech, I’m not sure what you find interesting about that table of voter intentions. For one, it is incomplete, missing out the dramatic shift downward in public opinion towards the Liberals from fall 2005 through to election day on January 23 2006. That all thanks to Paul Martin and his election team, probably the worst campaign ever, worse than Dion’s by a large margin because Martin actually had a hope of winning.

      I’ve taken that table and brought it up to date and published the results as a chart here:


      I have taken a couple of liberties and a) collapsed the PC, Reform and Socred voting intention data into one party, the ReformATory party. I’ve also added a mythical Lib-Dem party and one other which is even more interesting, the Anything But Conservative Party.

      As you can see from the data the ascendency of the Bloc, the hollowing out of centre / centre left votes by the Greens and NDP, have helped ensure a divided opposition that Harper can beat to win a majority. This is especially true since the only truly “efficient” voting block is the Bloc support itself. Despite Anything But Conservative pulling in 65% of Canadian voter intentions (a 30 point gap over the Conservatives), most Canadians will not get the kind of representation they seek.

  15. Darrell says:

    Kinsella, why is Michael Ignatieff, Bob Rae, Scott Reid and the Liberal caucus portraying you as a liar. These asses are throwing you under the bus. Ignatieff is still in diapers when compared to you in the political realm.

    Listen Kinsella, I believe you but if you lied just to hang with Wendy Mesley again, I understand. I got your back brother.

  16. Wascally Wabbit says:

    Warren undermining Michael Ignatieff?
    Permit me to scoff!
    Mr. Ignatieff (and Mr. Apps) probably bought Warren several beers last night – with an open tab for many more in the future!
    Because Warren’s little distraction drew attention away from the scene of the Liberal caucus sneaking out of the side doors Tuesday night as Harper’s Omnibus Bill C-9 came up for final vote and the Liberals – presumably “led” by Mr. Ignatieff – whimpered, rolled over and vowed “to fight” another day!
    And they want us to continue fighting for an independent and vibrant party led by Mr. Ignatieff…
    Did I use up all my scoffs yet?

    Wasally Wabbit

  17. John says:

    When two liberals open their mouths how can you tell which one is lying? Probably a bit of both.

    It is nice to see Joe Clark has found his political home though. Poor guy was very confused for many years. Couldn’t even count, so he’ll fit right in with the economically illiterate NDP-Liberal coalition.

    • Michael Watkins says:

      Say what you will about Joe Clark but the only two Conservative Prime Ministers to last more than a few months in the last 30 years, Stephen Harper and Brian Mulroney, both spent like drunken sailors and put Canada deeper into debt. The lifetime achievement award for economic illiteracy goes to those to, um, gentlemen. Just don’t pass it to them in an envelope stuffed full of cash.

  18. Martin Partridge says:

    It’s a joke for Conbots to talk about other people lying. The current Conservative government is the biggest bunch of frickin liars in political history.

  19. Elizabeth says:

    Conbot Crackheads – addicted to power, and therein lies the problem. Addiction carries its own set of problems.

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