01.22.2016 10:01 AM

Brian Jean is right

“You can’t dump raw sewage, accept foreign tankers, benefit from equalization and then reject our pipelines.”
 

34 Comments

  1. Shaun says:

    Braid’s article irked me in one key aspect. This isn’t an Alberta vs. ROC issue. A lot of Atlantic Canadians would be more than happy to buy Canadian oil and gas.

  2. lance mclean says:

    Whether you agree or not to oil use it is still a product that the world is consuming at a higher rate year after year. https://www.eia.gov/forecasts/steo/report/global_oil.cfm

    So why not use our own oil. As much as the chattering self interest groups spout off, we have some of the best environmental laws and enforcement in the world. Can it be better, of course it can, it can be better everywhere in the world, but atleast we try here. You can’t say that about many of the world largest oil producers.

    We shriek about selling arms etc to Saudi Arabia but yet we are willing to finance that same country through buying their oil. Saudi Arabia has a higher CO2 emission per capita than we do in Canada, and knowing environmental consultants that work in Saudi Arabia, their environmental laws and enforcement is a joke compared to us, (direct venting gas to atmosphere, spills, etc).. I am not going to even get into their human rights issues.

    I just don’t get it, we as Canadians seem to love to put our selves down and it is to our detriment.

    It is maddening all this petty posturing of politicians trying to prove that their region is better than another region of our country. The reason we are a great country is that we have a vast resource base that can be shared by all. That is what got us to where we are now.

  3. nobonus4nonis says:

    three wrongs don’t make a right.

  4. P. Brenn says:

    I agree…we are suppose to work together as a country I hope….and unfortunately you must move oil product some how…is pipleine not the safest rather than truck , rail , train given volumes etc…sometimes you just have to hold your nose even if you’d rather not and do what is right for all in country…

  5. billg says:

    But they do, they have, and, they probably still will.
    This to me is JT’s first test, he has the power to push this through, and, he pretty much has to.
    The CBC has probably already started a 4 part expose on what Quebec takes in monetarily compared to other provinces….I jest.

  6. Terence Quinn says:

    Its just typical quebec bribery. They want something that is not yet on the table, whether that be an NGL terminal or something related to the refineries in Montreal and Quebec City.

    • godot10 says:

      Montreal can rebuild a global petrochemical industry, if Energy East goes through. And those are high-paying middle class jobs.

  7. Jack D says:

    The equalization payments argument is such a bullshit false correlation. For one thing, it implies that provinces whom benefit from equalization payment should be beholden to the priorities of the transferor. That’s not even remotely how our confederation works. Second, it suggests that the economic relationships between have and have-not provinces work in a give and take manner across Canada, which assumes that provinces (not sectors) are absolutely isolated from neighbouring provinces. Thirdly, while its evident that some western politicians believe they possess a monopoly over the resources in their territory, Canadian resources remain very much the property of the collective federation; hence the participation of the wider Canadian workforce in these resource rich province and the federal government’s advocation for resource development as a Canadian product.

    For the record, I absolutely agree that Denis Coderre stands on very unsubstantiated moral grounds on this issue. Its difficult for him to escape the political cost of his previous decisions while simultaneously passing judgement in this way.

    That said, there are two things that must change going forward if we intend on having successfully resource development:

    1) Pipeline companies need to get their shit together; Coderre defined them as “arrogant” in their consultation process and this isn’t the first time they’ve been accused of this. I’m not an expert on building pipelines but I do understand that we live in an environment where social attitudes drive political will. If these companies are consistently failing to make their case then its time for a revamp in their approach.

    2) Brad Wall and others need to drop this dumbass notion of “do as we say or give the money back” when speaking to other provinces. Its a ridiculous argument and completely fallacious. All it achieves is polarizing the relationship between Alberta/Saskatchewan and the rest of Canada in a pointless and fundamentally flawed political conflict.

    I like something Brian Jean said on PnP yesterday; he said that while we may be headed towards a fossil-fuel free economy in the future, we current still rely on the industry. Its acceptable to acknowledge that our current needs, while changing, still require the use of oil. I think this a rational, reasonable argument to make but its not one thats going to garner any traction when you follow it up with useless, angry drivel about transfer payments, eastern Canada versus western Canada and another politician’s evidently hypocritical position on the environment.

    • Tim White says:

      Good points all Jack. I’m going to emphasize one point, that while we are transitioning out of the big oil economy, it makes sense to consume our own resources in the immediate future rather than enrich others. Canada first. Hopefully that’s something everyone can understand.

      • Jack D says:

        I agree completely, Tim.

        Proponents of this pipeline have a valid point to make on this particular issue. The immediate impact on the Canadian economy would be very timely given its current situation. Unfortunately this argument isn’t being effectively articulated. Instead we have pointless demagoguery and people launching into tirades on TV about transfer payments (which as you can tell, I’m immensely irritated by).

    • Jack D says:

      Thanks Dan.

      I don’t know the specifics regarding the pipeline itself, but you make good points.

      Due diligence is obviously crucial with projects like these. Any air of apathy on the part of pipeline companies severely hinders the process of social licensing.

    • Kelly says:

      Brad Wall is in election mode. I grew up on the Prairies. Bashing Quebec and Ottawa during elections is what politicians in Saskatchewan DO. I only took French in grade 7 and 8 because by Grade 9 (this was the late 1970s) a parent committee had French removed from the school as a taught course. The French teacher remained on staff teaching English and tutored kids who wanted to take French which they could do by correspondence.

    • SG says:

      Interesting that making factual statements about Quebec’s freeloading upsets you. But Liberals making bigoted comments about somebody’s religion don’t seem to upset you in the slightest.

      If the roles were reversed and Quebec had the oil (and by the way, Quebec does have immense natural wealth that I’m fairly certain it deems to be its own), I wonder what your read on the situation would be.

      • Jack D says:

        What the fuck are you talking about, SG?

        First of all, there is nothing “factual” about the characterization of the equalization payments being falsely made. Evidently you, along with those who are perpetuating such idiocy, are completely ignorant of the functionality of our Canadian confederation. Go back and read my original comments thoroughly and see why such allegation are fundamentally ludicrous. Or better yet, take a course at your local University on this subject matter and educate yourself on provincial-federal fiscal structuring.

        Second of all, bigoted comments about what? What in god’s green fuck are you talking about? This is a discussion about pipelines and provincial equalizations. You are apparently having difficulties remaining on a relevant subject matter.

        Third of all, I don’t give a shit which direction the oil the travels — I’m indifferent to it entirely. That you would assume this boils down to political perspectives shows the extent of your knowledge on this matter. What does irk me is when the educationally challenged abuse a debate/discussion to spew categorically erroneous information.

        Frankly I’m surprised your comment was allowed to be posted seeing as it entirely inflammatory without any logical basis, contributing nothing to this discussion.

    • Richard Fromm says:

      Don’t worry Jack D. If the western provinces cannot get their natural resource products to market, there will be no more equalization payments, as they and Quebec will have the same fiscal capacities…all will be poor.

      • Jack D says:

        With these commodity prices? Its not gonna do Alberta much good anyway.

        • lance mclean says:

          No it actually will help as Alberta sells at a discount due to the lack of market access, an approx 10$ per barrel discount. So the east refineries would even benefit greater until such time that the access is at a point where that discount is nil and western oil is selling at WTI which tends to be less that Brent on average. So all around the east refineries will get a better deal on oil and Alberta will get a better price.

      • Justin, not in Ottawa says:

        At least we’ll finally have a socialist utopia when everyone is equally poor.

  8. Darren H says:

    So I take it no one has handed any cash over yet in an envelope or briefcase? How dare TransCanada not understand how business is done in the City of Montreal.

  9. e.a.f. says:

    Yes, you can.

    However, one does get the speaker’s point.

    On the other hand, those pipelines go for long, long distances and some of the companies don’t exactly have a good track record of dealing with the problems they create.

    It a nice “catchy” line though, go to give him that.

  10. Warren says:

    That strategist guy is a jerk, I heard

  11. Ronald O'Dowd says:

    Warren,

    I wonder if this isn’t really about value added. Maybe Lévis and Saint John are about to get a bigger piece of the pie than La Métropole…makes for tight shorts in some quarters.

  12. Steve T says:

    It seems there is a simple solution to equalization, which will focus the discussion for some of the perpetual “have not” jurisdictions. Equalization should be based on a percent of national net GDP. So, if you are against something that would stimulate the economy, then fine – but realize you will get less if the GDP of the country drops due to kiboshing a project.

  13. smelter rat says:

    Since when did this become Brian Jean’s pipeline? Or Alberta’s for that matter?

    • SG says:

      Alberta’s the only one fighting for it (well, Saskatchewan too). BC, Ontario, and Quebec are trying to block it.

      The thing is, this is not a provincial decision. Officially, to the best of my knowledge, the provinces have no legal say in the matter. As a skeptic of PM Trudashian, I will be very impressed if he stands up to the anti-Alberta Liberal premiers and gets the project under way as it is quite obviously in the best interest of Canada. He is the PM of all of Canada, not just illiberal, know-nothing “progressives” in Toronto and Montreal.

  14. Justin, not the one in Ottawa says:

    The fact is we are still going to need oil. Despite what the NDP or what Rabble magazine thinks, oil will still play a part in a future energy mix. We can’t just switch to alternative like a light switch overnight and denounce oil energy. And as an Eastern bastard, I would rather have a safe supply of oil from Alberta and Saskatchewan than lining the pockets of evil Middle Eastern emirs and princes.

  15. JamesHalifax says:

    Quebec is just being Quebec……

    Once they publicly state they are just doing this to protect the environment………then the politicians in Quebec will privately tell the company what their “cut” will need to be for them to change their mind.

    The Quebec mafia is alive and well. but we call them Mayors now.

  16. e.a.f. says:

    it is peculiar that everyone was getting all upset about Montreal having to put sewage into the river, when they were repairing their system. Hell, in Victoria, B.C. they have been dumping raw sewage and industrial sewage directly into the ocean since they had a sewer system. Victoria has never had a sewer system and most likely never will. The Americans are getting a tad impatient about it because all that sewage does wind up in their water also.

    Now as to money moving around the country, well that is why we’re a country. alberta used to get it and then they had to give it. We all need to get over it.

    Those politicians in Quebec don’t want a pipeline and are saying so because that is what their voters want. Say what you will about those Quebec politicians, but if the politicians in other parts of the country worked like the Quebecers did, perhaps they’d have more.

    • JamesHalifax says:

      E.A.F.

      If other mayors in the rest of the country were like the mayors in Quebec…….I wonder how many police investigations there would be.

      I wouldn’t use Quebec as an example of politicians doing what their constituents want. As we have seen many times, when a quebec politician does anything; it usually involves some type of kickback or payoff. The extortion for the Energy East pipeline will be the same. If Coderre changes his mind, it is because Trudeau has promised him what Coderre demanded. And just as likely, it will come from the pocket of taxpayers.

      • lance mclean says:

        What is ironic is that the CAISSE DE DEPOT ET PLACEMENT DU QUEBEC’s (you know the guys who manage Quebecs public and parapublic pensions funds) are the 12th largest shareholders of Transcanada Pipelines. It is obvious the average Quebec resident who benefits under these programs already get a benefit from any pipeline built or to be built through shares held in their pension funds. Talk about cutting your nose off to spite your face. Maybe they should ask CAISSE DE DEPOT ET PLACEMENT DU QUEBEC’s to sell their portion of the 329 million dollars worth of shares and go throw it at Bombardier as that has been proven to be a great return on investment.

  17. Richard Fromm says:

    Is Canada a federation or not? What is the point of being part of a federation when it’s provincial sub-units can limit one’s ability to get its products to market?

    Quebec, nor any other Canadian province is an independent nation state. Nor do the provinces have the legal right to stop interprovincial pipelines. That is why there is the National Energy Board.

    Enough nonsense.

  18. lance mclean says:

    53% of Quebecers oppose Energy east but funny enough 100% of them own a part of Trans-Canada Pipelines.

    Quebecers benefit from approx 6 billion in investment in the oil/oilsands/pipeline companies through their Quebec pension plan. They are the 3rd largest institutional shareholder for Enbridge, 4th largest for Cenovus, 12th largest for Transcanada, 12th largest holder of Suncor.

    So it appears that those aweful oil company owners are just the everyday people of Quebec. I should say as well as millions of other Canadians who own RRSPs, as the other largest investors are our Banks and Investment Companies.

    This would be interesting and kind of funny if it wasn’t so sad that they have absolutely know idea that they benefit daily from the very companies they are trying to stop from making money.
    I guess ignorance is truely bliss.

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