05.24.2012 10:16 AM

On the lesson of Alberta, and Grits

…polls, and pollsters, get things wrong. The Angus Reid Group was one of the pollsters who got things dramatically wrong in Alberta, for instance.

That said, this puny online survey is unfortunately highly consistent with a bucket of other ones: the Liberal Party of Canada, led by Bob Rae, hasn’t moved out of third place. And now, seemingly, the Grits’ third-place position has gotten measurably worse.

The solution, with the greatest of respect, isn’t to simply shrug and continue with the status quo (and said status quo has been led by, and overseen by, one Bob Rae). The solution isn’t to demand the expulsion of those who dissent from the conventional Grit wisdom (such as happened to me yesterday, when I said on Sun News that, unlike Rae, I didn’t consider Omar Khadr, an al Qaeda enthusiast, to be an ideal citizen – and thereafter had various anonymous nobodies demanding online that I be kicked out of the LPC. Great way to get back the Jewish community, boys and girls!).

Big challenges call for big changes. Will Rae, and the crop of former Martin-era advisors around him, do what needs to be done?

Not a chance. Not on your life.

65 Comments

  1. JamesHalifax says:

    Warren, I don’t think you are alone in your opinion of Omar Khadr and his family. Unfortunately, most of the folks who agree with you….are Conservatives. Some Liberals of course, maybe most of them, however, the brain trust currently in charge of the Libs seem to think otherwise. I wonder who they’re pandering to.

    Maybe the Grits who accosted you don’t realize that Omar Khadr and his group may have been responsible for the deaths of some Canadian soldiers..in the streets, with guns…er, sorry, had a flashback.

    Maybe you should offer them a comparison to provide a little clarity.

    Ahem:

    Omar Khadr – Taliban member. Life saved by American soldiers after Omar tossed a grenade and killed an American medic.
    Taliban members: Yesterday, they used poison gas to attack 120 schoolgirls and their teachers. Many seriously injured and in hospital.

    See if that gets through to the aforementioned Libs who berated you. It certainly didn’t get through to the Toronto lawyers who recently demanded that Canadian taxpayers give Khadr “compensation” for the treatment he received at GITMO.

    • smelter rat says:

      He was a 15 year old child soldier who sadly had some seriously warped adult role models in his life. To state unequivocally that he was a Taliban member (do they issue membership cards?) is stretching it. He took a plea bargain to ensure that he wouldn’t be executed or sentenced to life in a gulag. He’s been tortured and confined for nearly a decade. He may not be a “model” citizen, but he is a citizen nevertheless, and Canada has a responsibility to deal with him as such..

      • Warren says:

        When was he tortured? I wasn’t aware of that.

        • JamesHalifax says:

          Warren, if you define torture as the imposition of physical pain to get a confession…no, he wasn’t tortured. If you consider torture as being in custody of the country that saved your life after you killed an American soldier…then yes, he was tortured.

          Smelter rat. My grandfather was a child soldier during the 1st world war. He fought at and survived Vimy. He signed up to fight for Canada, he wore the uniform, and he fought the enemy on the battlefield. He was also only 15. You cannot compare the actions of my grandfather to the actions of Omar Khadr. Khadr is a terrorist, and he fought like a terrorist. At 15, he knew exactly what he was doing. In fact, video of him building and planting roadside bombs has been on the internet for some time now. Omar learned how to make roadside bombs, and as you may be aware, that is exactly how most of the Canadian soldiers who died in Afghanistan met their end. That may not be a factor to you, but I can assure you it is a factor to most others.

          As for Omar being a Citizen of Canada….true. But so was Clifford Olson and so is Paul Bernardo. I wouldn’t want them walking free in Canada either.

          • smelter rat says:

            James, you can state unequivocally that he was not tortured? What would the odds of that be in Gitmo or wherever he was held prior to being taken there? Infinitesimally small given that Bush, Rummy and Cheney were actively promoting and supporting torture. I’m not sure what your Grandfather has to do with this case.

            Warren…can I “prove” he was tortured? Not likely, since torturers don’t normally admit to their deeds, so I will from here-on-in be careful to state that he was “allegedly tortured”. And yes, sleep deprivation is torture.

        • smelter rat says:

          The Americans haven’t exactly admitted it, but it’s not unreasonable to suspect that he was, along with many others at GITMO: http://www.aljazeera.com/news/americas/2010/08/201089205529630903.html

        • Tim Sullivan says:

          He claims he was tortured. Not sure how that was not caught with all those independent monitors, international observers, journalists and Amenty International folks parading around Gitmo (wait, what, no, there were none). George Bush’s policy was to permit torture and call it something else, even through the justice dept. opined that the something else was still torture.

          Sleep deprivation was a tool used when the Canadian government’s agents were there, denying him his Charter rights otherwise.

          I am really surprised at your defence of the denial of his right to return, WK. Right or wrong though he might have been, he was a child at the time he was arrested, declared an “unlawful combattant” whatever that is (I know, uniform etc., but what’s the rule about shooting a kid in the back?), and the last foreigner to be in Gitmo, a place so bad, and lacking in due process that the current president won on the promise (among others) to close it down.

          Is it true he was convicted under a statute which was not even a law at the time of the offence?

          Let’s put the mom and sister in jail (for bad interviews and being bad people).

          Maybe the Sun is getting to you.

          • JamesHalifax says:

            Tim, the Taliban are instructed to say they are tortured or mistreated upon capture. That’s one of their tactics to garner sympathy.

            As for sleep deprivation being torture…….sorry, it doesn’t even come close to what the Taliban or other fanatics do to their captives. Also, I think Warren has mentioned that Omar Khadr isn’t his idea of a good Canadian, but I don’t think he’s come right out and said not to let him return.

            As for Khadr being convicted for something that wasn’t a law at the time….hmm…interesting. Tell us then, when did murder become a crime? I’m pretty sure it was before Khadr killed the American medic.

            As for Mom and sister being put in jail…….I’ll settle for deportation for mom, and constant surveillance of the Canadian born members of the clan.

    • How about this narrative instead: Omar Khadr, 14 year old boy ordered into Afghanistan to a small training facility by his radical father. Late one night, a squad of 20 American Special Forces launches an attack on a walled compound far from the ‘front lines’, wiping out approximately 25 people inside. One boy, now 15 years old returns fire, throwing a grenade while his comrades are being mowed down all around him. Grenade explodes, medic killed, boy charged with murder???? You might as well charge a Formula One driver with speeding.
      The simple narrative that reads like terrorist murders american serviceman just does not hold water. This was a battle in a war He was in a place not of his own choosing, in a war torn country where violence is endemic. He was not of an age to make a real informed decision about anything of consequence. They (the terrorists) were attacked in the dead of night and were being annihilated when the so-called murder happened. Now it is true that the boy was not Taliban, he was being trained as an Al Qaida fighter. But honestly, can you call it murder when people, whether terrorists or otherwise are being slaughtered in the dead of night, and one of them fights back? You should be honest enough to call it what it was, a battle. And that carries us to the real crux of the problems with Gitmo. How many of the prisoners there could be fairly characterised as soldiers captured in battle? Some but not all. And is it fair to call a 15 year old boy a terrorist, a victim of his fathers, or should you call him a prisoner of war? This is relevant because prisoners of war, and child soldiers have some rights under the Geneva Convention, but Gitmo internees had no rights. If we profess to be Liberal Democracies, then we are bound to live under the rule of law, and the whole Gitmo camp was arbitrary and extra-judicial. And to claim that this boy bears some responsibility for the terrosrist acts of the Taliban is just plain weird. He was Al Quaida, not Taliban, and he certainly had no input into any poison gas attacks.
      And please, do not jump down my throat saying I am soft on terrorists or something. The Americans did the right thing in hunting down and killing everybody in that compound. Had Omar Khadr died in combat, I would shed no tears, but I would blame his father for his death, not the boy. But Omar Khadr did not die, he was the only survivor, and the legal rigamarole that ensued was arbitrary.

      • JamesHalifax says:

        Bluegreenblogger,

        Interesting narrative. Factually correct, but at this point in time irrelevant. I’m glad to see you harbour no sympathies to Khadr, however, there are a few points that make the telling of what happened a little different.

        Film of Khadr building and planting roadside bombs. Khadr and his ilk are NOT protected by the Geneva Convention because they do not fit the criteria for POW’s, or domestic combatants taking up arms against invaders. Khadr, and many of his co-horts were not Afghani, did not wear uniforms, and did not carry arms openly. They are not signatories to the Geneva Convention, and would not follow the rules contained therin in any event.

        True, Khadr was very young, and true he was conditioned by his father for Jihad. That’s a cruel reality and I’m sure Khadr would have turned out differntly if his family weren’t all Islamic fanatics. However, their poisonous ideology is what it is…..and Khadr has not renounced his actions. In fact, by all appearances he’s not sorry at all for what he has done, and has even vowed vengence (according to his equally fanatical brother).

        I think of Khadr as a dog with rabies. He may have led a different life at one time, but now that he’s been bitten, the only solution is to put him down. (ie. keep him in jail until he dies)

        True, the agreement says we should return him to Canada, but that doesn’t mean we have to like it, nor does it mean we can’t keep an eye on him. Omar Khadr and his family are a threat to Canada. We owe them nothing, regardless of what a bunch of bleeding heart lawyers in Toronto say. (not you WK)

  2. bigcitylib says:

    Nothing there to show any harm to Mulcair from his “attacks” on the West either.

    PS. I hope you didn’t say anything silly about keeping Khadr out of the country. Its not about him. Its about Canada dealing with its own nationals. Every other country got their guys back from Guantánamo. They felt it was owning up to their responsibilities.

    • Warren says:

      I’m not saying keep him out. He’s coming back. I’m simply saying he’s not someone I’d ever consider remotely comparable to any other Canadian national.

      Anyway, everyone please carry on doing what you’re doing. It’s been a big success!

    • JamesHalifax says:

      Bigcity……I would be more comfortable returning canadian nationals to Canada….if I thought that they had a commitment to the Country. As was evidenced by the Khadr’s clan’s ideology…they would prefer it if we all died.

      The truth remains, when Khadr gets back to Canada, there is little doubt the usual suspects will demand he gets compensation for his “Suffering” (with a slice for the lawyers no doubt) and he’ll be back on the streets shortly. Then we’ll be subjected to his speaking tour starting with a “one on One” with Peter Mansbridge.

      As recent history has shown, a great many other Canadian “nationals” feel the same way…and what is the one thing they all seem to have in common?

      You get one guess.

      • Tim Sullivan says:

        Commitment to country. Yeah, the test of citizenship.

        What a wonderful government we have, with such respect for s. 6 of the Charter.

        Khadr is left behind although he was a child soldier, convicted with a voluntary confession after a pile of natural law/due process violations, possibly tortured during 10 yrs without a trial and shot in the back while Conrad Black, who abandoned Canada and gave up citizenship voluntarily as an adult yet was provided piles of due process, disclosure, top legal representation and yet still says he is inocent although he is a convicted (at trial) criminal, is welcomed.

        • kenn2 says:

          This.

          Whether you think Omar Khadr is “nice” or genuinely guilty or whatever, you cannot ignore that:
          – he was 15
          – he is a Canadian citizen
          – he was shelved in an extra-legal gulag for 8+ years.

          Due process and justice are for everyone. Even Canadians we don’t happen to like.

        • JamesHalifax says:

          Commitment to the country does not mean one is committed to the current Government.

          As for Khadr getting shot in the back, he was in the middle of a firefight. People get shot …it happens.

          As for him being tortured, sorry. NO proof. Siimply keeping him awake is not torture. If you want to know what real torture looks like, it involves electrical cables, beatings, dipping in hot acid, or having holes drilled through your body with power tools. Most of this type of torture occurs in:
          -Iraq
          – IRAN
          -Pakistan…..etc…etc…

          You get the picture.

          While the victims of torture in the aforementioned countries usually die, or are crippled for life, the result of the “torture” imposed on Omar Khadr meant he packed on about 60 pounds of muscle and is in peak infidel killing shape.

          Some torture.

          • kenn2 says:

            Was Omar Khadr treated justly or not? Yes or No? I’m not asking about your personal opinion or worldview, I’m asking about due process, rules of war, Canada’s laws, the Geneva convention etc.

            the result of the “torture” imposed on Omar Khadr meant he packed on about 60 pounds of muscle and is in peak infidel killing shape.

            This is an argument? He was held for over 8 years.

          • JamesHalifax says:

            Kenn2,

            Given what Khadr has done, I think he’s been treated more that justly. As for due process, it was followed given the situation. Khadr and the other Islamic fanatics are not protected by the Geneva Conventions. In none of the four conventions, or protocols I and II, does it say terrorists are protected by the Law of Armed Conflict.

            As for my comment about him packing on 60 pounds of muscle, that was my argument to show he was not mistreated. Far from it. Aside from being confined, he was provided more than the necessities required to stay healthy. He was given time to practice his religion (probably not a good idea given what he believes), meet with people and counsel, access to entertainment and sports, etc..etc….

            Far from the gulag many prefer to believe.

            He was held for 8 years. True…and in that 8 years, how many roadside bombs did he build and plant on the roads in Afghanistan? How many people did he kill?

            Answer: NONE.

            That’s why he was held for 8 years.

  3. Philippe says:

    I share your opinion of Khadr, and I’m also a Liberal. Thankfully, I’m not important so no anonymous cronies bother me.

    Not sure what will happen with Rae, but I still don’t see a better candidate (he was naturally charismatic and connected with the audience on Tout le monde en parle). If one emerges, I would be the first to hop on the new ship but as of now I don’t see anything on the horizon. I hope one emerges – one that can inspire and unite the party.

    In my mind, there are a few likely scenarios coming to a theater near you. The most likely is that the NDP and Libs get another good ass-kicking – after which the unavoidable merger happens.

    • JamesHalifax says:

      What the Liberals need is a leader that has an actual set of principles other than “getting into power”

      Coming up with some sensible, realistic policy would help. That means any new policy would need to consider what would appeal to MOST Canadians, and not just Canadians in Toronto, Montreal, and Vancouver. Having a Liberal Leader that didn’t at one time belong to a Party that can’t seem to grasp basic economics would be a good start.

      Unfortunately, if the Libs think Bob Rae is the only choice……that’s what you’ll be stuck with.

    • Jordan says:

      I don’t see how Bob Rae, is any better than Dominic LeBlanc, David McGuinty, Marc Garneau or many of the other potential candidates.

      • JamesHalifax says:

        I think that is one of Warren’s main points.

        He’s not sounding too hopeful.

        Time to dust off Chretien and put him back in the saddle.

  4. Christian says:

    You’re right its a puny poll and an online one to boot (not to mention pollsters have a lousy track record). But, with the exception of his dismal approval record in Alberta (hardly surprising really) it does not appear that Mulclair has done himself any damage with his comments on the tar sands. If anything he’s likely picked up Green Party support and reinforced his Quebec base. Additional polls will be needed to see if this is a the case – and I have a suspicion it might be. Consider the following: a shrinking middle class, the confrontation of the 99 vs 1%, the Quebec student protests (and the Quebec gov’t’s ham-fisted handling of it), austerity in Europe, the debate of taxation in the US, the Drummond Report in Ontario, the closure of the Caterpillar plant in London, Harper’s assault on EI and OAS. All of the above events (and others not mentioned) are doing is causing a growing number of people in this country (and around the world) like they are under attack and that their standards of living are under threat. This increases societal polarization and confrontation to the detriment of compromise and accomodation. Politics is beginning to respond to that changing context. Mulclair and Harper fit the polarization/confrontation environment and seem to be benefitting from it. The same applies to the more extreme parties in Greece and other European countries. Parties associated with the ‘mainstream’ and compromise i.e.:The Liberal Party of Canada are being sidelined as a result of this changing societal context (they are also being sidelined because they helped facilitate the increasing polarized environment i.e.: Quebec Liberal Party’s stupid reaction to the students, the embrace of austerity by the mainstream parties in Greece). I hope I’m wrong because if I’m not its going to be one long hot summer on the streets and one hell of a winter in the wilderness for political parties like the Liberals.

  5. JamesHalifax says:

    Christian, you nailed it with regards to Mulcair.

    Mulcair isn’t so much concerned about development of resources as he is with the development of his base in Quebec, and his belief that unemployed workers in the manufacturing sector of Ontario will believe his theory about dutch disease. Mulcair knows the culture in Quebec and he understands that the anti-West sentiment is pretty strong. He’s also hoping that unemployed workers in Ontario will resent the West, as many are looking for someone to blame for their misfortune. Trying to explain to these folks that the recession is responsible, and how it realistically impacts the economy is not as easy as pointing fingers Westward. Give the man credit though…..he’s at least coming up with a plan, albeit a divisive and factually wrong plan…but a plan none-the-less.

    Montreal protests: Well, it was a student protest to begin with, but it has since been hijacked by the usualy suspects. As soon as the Labour unions and the Global socialists became involved…..it became theirs.

    I find fault with many of your other points (OAS and EI for example) but I’ve addressed those previously, and i’m sure philip and others are in no need of a re-hash.

    • Jason King says:

      “Labour unions and the Global socialists became involved”

      Hopefully they came with handlebar moustaches, top hats and giant spherical bombs with visible fuses

      • JamesHalifax says:

        No, Jason, they didn’t come with top hats, or moustaches.

        They came with molotov coctails, clubs, and hammers.

  6. Tiger says:

    Khadr’s a Canadian citizen. Have to let him in if he shows up at the border.

    I just wouldn’t have lifted a finger to get him there.

    But, we apparently promised he could serve his sentence in Canada to get him to sign the plea bargain, so we should live up to our word.

    • Brammer says:

      Who is let in or kept out is a real crapshoot.

      Non-criminal member of the british house of commons? – OUT

      Convicted member of the british house of lords? – IN

      Canadian citizen…

      Don’t like our principles? Wait, we have others.

      • Tiger says:

        There’s a lot of give in the law, but if and when a Canadian citizen shows up at the border, you have to let him in.

        You can arrest him, charge him with treason, whatever — but he can’t be denied entry.

        Getting there, though — that’s on him.

      • gray says:

        If you are talking about Galloway there is evidence that he supported a terrorist group, well a picture of him handing cash to the leader of Hamas but maybe your definition of “support” of different.

        Also he was never turned away just told in a opinion that based his history of supporting terrorist groups that he was likely to be turned away. He appealed and won. So whats your beef?

        • smelter rat says:

          Independently verified photos or it didn’t happen.

          • JamesHalifax says:

            smelter rat…..there was a video showing him handing over a bag of cash. I think it was played on TV during the kerfuffle.

  7. Chris P says:

    The definition of insanity is doing the same action over and over again expecting different results – Why than do people believe with the same leader, same communications ‘strategy’, policy development process etc. i.e. the status quo the outcome of the polls or elections would be anything different. They won’t. When you don’t change you die.

    I respect and do like Bob Rae – however, it is clear he is not the person to take us foward according to the Canadian public. I still pray for Liberals outside of politics to get back involved and understand the severity of the issue at hand.

  8. Chris P says:

    Warren – Are we still reffering to people as ‘Martin’ people and ‘Chretien’ people? Change can only come if everyone takes upon themselves to be a change agent. Rule #1 is NEVER to identify nor reffer to anyone as ‘X’ person. It’s over – that language is so 2000’s. Everyone needs to move on.

  9. Philip says:

    It really doesn’t matter if you consider Khadr an ideal citizen or not. He is a Canadian citizen, full stop. Just like Tony Clement.
    Khadr is coming back home to serve out the rest of his sentence. That was the result of a plea bargain entered into by the current government. I’m not sure how make personal value judgements on the actions of a 15 year old soldier change his citizenship status.

    • JamesHalifax says:

      Philip wrote:

      “It really doesn’t matter if you consider Khadr an ideal citizen or not. He is a Canadian citizen, full stop. Just like Tony Clement.”

      Really philip? That’s where you are now?

      Tell me, Phil. How many roadside bombs did Tony Clement build and then bury on the roads in Afghanistan? How many American soldiers did Tony Clement murder?

      The fact you consider Khadr a “soldier” is insulting enough, but the fact you cannot make a personal judgement between what Khadr is, and what Clement is…..is simply bizarre.

      • Tim Sullivan says:

        Don’t know. How many did Khadr build and plant? Khadr was a “child soldier”, a kid, a teenager. Call him what you want. The international community through convensions and treaties calls him a “child soldier”.

        • Philip says:

          Tim:
          Just a point to make about the phrase: “child soldier”. In 1908, the British Army underwent the most extensive re-organization in it’s long history since the end of the Napoleonic Wars in 1815. One area that was addressed was enrollment. A man could join the Army at 18 years of age but could not be sent overseas until he was 19. At age 17, a man could only join the Territorial Reserves, battalions which stayed in England and were never intended to fight. There are good reasons for this, get your recruit old enough to make good decisions and young enough to to believe his is invincible.
          The 15 year old Omar Khadr was a child. Put a weapon in his hands and he becomes a soldier. Omar Khadr had absolutely no business being in that compound in Ayub Khyel in 2002. I put that all on his so called father, who put his son in danger for his own selfish reasons.

        • JamesHalifax says:

          TimSullivan,

          Just because he was young does not mean Khadr was a soldier. He was a young terrorist, and as such deserves no protection. In fact, if you read the four Geneva Conventions and additional protocols, you will find ZERO mention of protection for terrorists.

          nice try though.

          Khadr is a lot of things (fanatic, murderer, bomb maker, terrorist), but he is NOT a soldier.

      • Philip says:

        Both Tony Clement and Omar Khadr are Canadian citizens and there is not much either of us can do about it. Yes, that’s exactly where I am at right now.

        “As for Khadr getting shot in the back, he was in the middle of a firefight. People get shot …it happens.”

        Absolutely. So please tell me why Omar Khadr has to suck it up after three 5.56 mm rounds in the back and shrapnel in the left eye but a Special Forces team member and medic, Christopher Speer is “murdered” by Khadr’s grenade? Both soldiers tried to kill each other during the firefight, one succeeded, the other didn’t. It’s called war, some people die and others live. There is no moral to it, no fairness, just ugliness, waste and destruction. It’s not how war is shown on the History Channel but it’s how it happens out in the real world. Omar Khadr was a soldier, the Special Forces team that came through the compound recognized him as such, I have no problem doing the same. I simply don’t care if you find that statement insulting or not.

        • JamesHalifax says:

          Phil, you wrote that Khadr and Clement are the “same.” I pointed out the fallacy of your comment. You are correct that both are Canadian citizens, but that is the only thing you got right.

          As for Omar Khadr being a soldier, and not an Islamic Fanatic, I suppose you think the 19 Hijackers who took out the World Trade centre also fit your definition? Because the hijackers and Khadr were following the same ideology.

  10. Self-confessed Raelian says:

    Sadly, I am beginning to think that Mr. Rae(and his coterie of “advisors) should go quietly into the night……He could retire and become the “eminence gris” of the party, as Joe Clark redux did when he realized he coudnt take the PC Party any further….I had such great hopes for the party when Mr. Rae took the reins…..I thought he might give the party what it so desperately needs……a giant enema……instead, soporifics…..
    I like Mr Rae, and still hope he can turn things around……but I havent seen much evidence of the much needed changes in the party yet…….still as top down as ever, imho…….

  11. RP. says:

    How much do you love the name of the LPC outreach measure, “Operation spRED” ? Unintentionally (I think) hilarious.

    • Philip says:

      I had a laugh at that as well. Nobody gave that one a second look? Wow.
      My personal vote would have been for something epically over the top, such as: Operation Steel Vengence or Operation Death Unicorn. Something catchy.

  12. Mark says:

    Warren… how is it Martin’s people are still so front and centre? From 3 majorities to 20%… you would think people would stop hiring them.

  13. JamesHalifax says:

    Jerry….take a pill before you suffer an aneurism.

    What is the option to being a fiscal conservative? Fiscal spendthrift? (aka NDP)

    Jerry, how do you expect to fund social programs if you cannot handle your resources properly? As mentioned before, Governments have NO money other than that which is taken by people who work and pay taxes. People work, because someone has hired them, and in Canada that is the job of the private sector. Why would you begrudge success? You seem to think that anyone successful must have achieved that success by beating down someone else (the workers?). Sorry…that ideology is a proven failure. (though…it doesn’t stop the NDP from trying)

    As for the Labels of Liberal or Conservative, there is a historical difference for sure, but in today’s political climate the two parties are not that far apart fiscally. They both understand that NOTHING will be paid for if people don’t work, which is why only those two parties have ever led the Country. I was a card carrying LIberal until the mid 90’s…..but if the Liberals would stop pandering to the lowest common denominator and actually get back on track I may be persuaded to vote for them again.

    As for the “corporatism light” to which you refer…ask yourself a few questions.

    1. Who invented/created the computer you are sitting at?
    2. Who invented/created the iphone you may own?
    3. Who invented/created the car you drive?

    It’s easy to sit back and slag corporations when you haven’t spent any time considering what they actually do. Try and imagine all of the nice things you wouldn’t have, if it wasn’t for corporations.

    Economic delusion. Not a nice place to inhabit, jerry. Try to get out while you can.

  14. JamesHalifax says:

    Better yet, Jerry…..

    Talk to phil, Jason, and a few others and direct them here. It’s not as in depth or complex as the texts I use, however, for those without Economic literacy…it’s a start.

    http://www.amazon.ca/Economics-Dummies-Sean-Masaki-Flynn/dp/0470879483

    You’re welcome.

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