, 01.08.2020 08:31 AM

Were 63 Canadians murdered by Iranian armed forces?

That is what the New York Times’ Nicholas Kristof is asking this terrible morning:

If that turns out to be the case, Iran has committed an act of war against Canada. The League of Nations, among others, define an act of war as an attack by a state’s land, naval or air forces, with or without a declaration of war, on the territory, vessels or aircraft of another state. So this would appear to qualify, if true.

This morning, the government advised Canadians to “avoid non-essential travel” to Iran. That seems to lack the requisite emphasis, but maybe that is the way Global Affairs expresses itself.

In any event, in the case of the burgeoning Iran-U.S. undeclared war, Canada’s desire to render itself very small hasn’t worked. The families of those murdered Canadians are going to demand answers and action.

We’re involved now, whether we like it or not.

44 Comments


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    rockgolf says:

    I don’t know if you can call such an accident an act of war. The US similarly accidentally shot down an Iranian passenger plane killing 300 about 20 years ago and effectively got by with “Oops! My bad!”


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      Warren says:

      How do you know it was an accident?


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        Hugh says:

        Expect more “whataboutism” to come.


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        Darwin O'Connor says:

        It seems to most likely explanation. It’s hard to imagine the benefit to them of doing it on purpose.


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          Ronald O'Dowd says:

          Darwin,

          Obviously if you were about to lob missiles at foreign base targets, it’s highly unlikely that you would keep civilian air controller authorities in the loop.


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            Darwin O'Connor says:

            It wasn’t hit by a long range missile targeted at a foreign base, but an anti-aircraft missile that was at the ready for an American response that never came.


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        MoLarr says:

        The show Mayday explained it pretty well.


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    Gary says:

    The timing couldn’t be worse. Isis is yet to be destroyed adequately, the coalition has splintered, and a psychopath is Leader of The Free World.


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    Robert White says:

    Frankly, this all appears to be far too coincidental to be anything but a false flag op. Moreover, Canadians all want to avoid going into any war with Trump & the Military Industrial Complex.

    NATO is bad news for Canadians IMHO. Let’s cash NATO in and get our money back, eh.

    RW


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      Ronald O'Dowd says:

      Robert,

      We’re serial delinquent payers as Trump has repeatedly noted. Guess we’ll have to settle that bill before we go.


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    Fred J Pertanson says:

    I would say it is an act of war against Ukraine.

    The key phrase is “aircraft of another state”.

    Not a Canadian plane.


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    J.H. says:

    Do you think Trudeau and his government would ever tell us the truth? Whatever it is, we’ll end up learning it from independent sources and not our government, which tippy toes around even using the word terrorist.


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      Ronald O'Dowd says:

      J.H.,

      They are already on the slippery minority slope as regards public esteem. Even they aren’t stupid enough to play fast and loose with the facts on this one.


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    Fred from BC says:

    I’m not buying it.

    Even if this didn’t come from a source as overtly biased and untrustworthy as the New York Times, it doesn’t make sense to me that an aircraft would (accidentally) be shot down *leaving* Iran. Entering Iran, sure…not leaving.

    We’ll know for sure if Iran allows outside investigators from Boeing to come and do their job as they normally would, I guess.


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      Darwin O'Connor says:

      It doesn’t make any sense at all, which points to an accident.

      Iranian air defences would have been ultra-high alert. A plane suddenly appears on radar as it flies up in the air and a low level officer pulls the trigger withour thinking.


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      Ronald O'Dowd says:

      Montréalaise,

      Yeah, if this is an accident, I’m really prime minister.


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      Fred from BC says:

      “Iran is refusing to turn over the black boxes to investigators on the illogical pretext that the aircraft was manufactured by an American company. ”

      Yeah, I noticed that. They won’t let Boeing *or* the Ukrainian government even examine the data, either. With Boeing, they have at least the basis for an excuse (illogical or not)…but the Ukraine? Something’s not right.


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    Pedro says:

    Just wondering about the use of a “League of Nations” reference. Is that THE standing definition by which all acts are prosecuted today? Jus’ wunderin’ – you bein’ a lawyer an’all.


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      Ronald O'Dowd says:

      Pedro,

      He meant United Nations.


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    Terry says:

    Boeing planes have a habit of falling out of the sky. Ukraine is a corrupt impoverished state that may not have the ability to adequately enforce maintenance standards. Canada at war with Iran? Utterly absurd.


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    PAM LEVY says:

    Trudeau and his Minister of Defence will do nothing except posturing, meetings, more meetings and white noise.


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      Ronald O'Dowd says:

      Pam,

      This will make it mandatory for Canada to take her cue from Trump. And we most assuredly will, as will NATO and the EU.


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    Washington Irving says:

    That aircraft flight number was targeted by the axis of evil long ago, the only thing that happened last night was the decision to shoot it down. The calculus is simple:

    Ukraine (at war with Russia) + Canada (Head of NATO mission) = Putin + Ayatollah – Manchurian Candidate

    As for being at War, Canada has neither a Leader or a Military, or an Ally in America… so no, we are definitely going to bury our dead and hide in the corner.


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      Ronald O'Dowd says:

      WI,

      If this goes big, for sure Russia will get in on Iran’s side.


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    Mitch Brisebois says:

    I liked your Best Email Ever post much better, as it showed appreciation, hope for humanity, and great taste in music. Wish we all could rewind a week and restart this year.


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    Gyor says:

    I’m going to wait for an investigation before making assumptions, this could be untrue.


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      Fred from BC says:

      Mildly impressed that Trudeau said almost the same thing.


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    Nasty Bob says:

    Hmmm …can’t believe they would target civilians from a nation they had no beef with when hours earlier they attack a foe nation’s military bases but, apparently , took steps not to target military personnel there ?

    Perhaps a glitch/mistake in anti-aircraft/ missile system but that would usually result in a partial breakup of the aircraft as it fell from the sky

    Given the plane kept on course for 2 minutes after it stopped sending telemetry and then took a steep bank turn I’m speculating, as everyone is at this point, it was an electrical or other system fire causing partial or full panel loss ( or just smoke in the cabin) With no instrumentation the pilot made an uncoordinated turn that induced a stall/spin


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      Fred from BC says:

      “it was an electrical or other system fire causing partial or full panel loss ( or just smoke in the cabin) With no instrumentation the pilot made an uncoordinated turn that induced a stall/spin”

      Maybe, yes…but it could still have been due to a missile strike.


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    PJH says:

    Firstly, condolences to all the family, friends, co-workers and classmates affected by this horrific tragedy.

    It would appear that flying a commercial airline anywhere near a combat zone is increasingly risky. Case in point, the downing of the Malaysian Airlines Flight 17 over Ukraine in 2014, taken down, in error, by a Buk surface to air missile provided by Russia.
    Perhaps the airlines themselves need to show better judgement when and where they fly.


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    Ronald O'Dowd says:

    NOT RELATED.

    I’ve begun canvassing my CPC member network in Quebec City and this is what I’m hearing: chances are 95% Charest gets in. Most members here are inclined to go with him but a lot tell me they won’t until they hear from Ambrose. The general consensus is that time is starting to run out for her.
    They’ve been patient but the time is now to shit or get off the pot. And if Rona gets off, most are going with Charest.


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      Warren says:

      On Bay Street, parts of Atlantic, elsewhere too. If he runs, he’s got the Mulroney network.


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      Fred from BC says:

      “And if Rona gets off, most are going with Charest.”

      He would have to stop working for Huawei first, of course.


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        Warren says:

        For sure he’d have to resign that and every assignment. But Stock Day works for them, many others. And Bell supports their entry now as 5G. This dog won’t hunt, I don’t think.


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          Dawn Mills says:

          but it might lift it’s leg and piss on the wrong tree. Charest being a paid Huawei adviser worries me.

          He is a nice guy…met him once in YYC when he first ran for the PC leadership.


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          Fred from BC says:

          I believe it. Gal Godot also works for them, so I’m torn…;)


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    joe says:

    Approximately two months after 9-11 American Airlines flight 587 crashed. Lots of speculation at the time that it must have been terrorism.

    The investigation revealed something else.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Airlines_Flight_587

    We have very few facts and lots of speculation about the Ukrainian Airlines crash. Having participated in several non aircraft accident investigations myself, and read about many more, I will say that the true cause of most accidents is usually not what people first thought or speculated.

    Patience is required. It will be many months before we find out what really happened.


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    Quo Vadis says:

    Well the jury is in…missile strike.

    Listening to the latest PM’s address to MSM and I cannot believe how pathetic they are by asking multiple times if the US should be blamed in part for this.

    Got the impression most of the MSM didn’t even calculate that this was a shooting until they were told.


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      Fred from BC says:

      “Listening to the latest PM’s address to MSM and I cannot believe how pathetic they are by asking multiple times if the US should be blamed in part for this. ”

      Yeah, I was watching at lunch when that press conference came on. To his credit, JT refused to take the bait…but still, what a bunch of scum for even asking that question (never mind over and over).

      Trudeau appears to be a changed man. Hmmm….


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    Canny Scott says:

    Speculation is the Iranian officials knew no Americans were on-board and have, since Canada’s great ambassador caper in 1979 when the mullahs took over, wanted to get revenge on this country. They knew no Americans were on-board and ordered the plane shot down. Not out of the realm of possibility.


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      Fred from BC says:

      “hey knew no Americans were on-board and ordered the plane shot down. Not out of the realm of possibility.”

      Definitely not. The way they ‘responded’ to the death of Soleimani by walking right up to the line, putting their toes on it but *not crossing it* speaks to that, I think (they even managed to make Donald Trump look like a statesman, which was certainly not their intention (no small feat, either).

      They are also telling their own people that they killed 80 Americans and wounded abut 200 more.


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        Fred from BC says:

        “They knew no Americans were on-board and ordered the plane shot down. Not out of the realm of possibility.”

        Possible, perhaps….but not likely. The way they ‘responded’ to the death of Soleimani by walking right up to the line, putting their toes on it but *not crossing it* speaks to that, I think (they even managed to make Donald Trump look like a statesman, which was certainly not their intention (no small feat, either).

        They are also telling their own people that they killed 80 Americans and wounded abut 200 more.


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    Paige says:

    Once the mourning has ended it will be interesting to examine the passenger manifest to determine the target. Obviously, the rest of the passengers were of no value to the Regime, but the reparations Iran will be forced to pay to Ukraine for a nearly new 737 will be significant. Which passenger was worth it?


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      Paige says:

      I checked the Tehran airport departures. About 40 per day typical. One left 10 min before and one left 2 minutes after. Why was the plane from Ukraine the only one targeted? Check the manifest.

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